Let me get something off my chest.
I’m sad that “Memoirs of a Geisha” is cast with women of Chinese descent in the three leading female roles.
I’m sad because this movie will reinforce inacurate stereotypes about geisha and Japan.
I’m sad because this says that there are no Japanese or Japanese-American women actors worthy of these leading roles. In fact, the press release from Sony/Dreamworks/Spyglass even says that casting began in Japan.
The primary cast was assembled after an exhaustive search, which began with several months in Japan and continued throughout Asia to find the perfect actor for each role.
I think it is safe to assume that the casting people started looking in Japan for obvious reasons, but that they could not find actors of the caliber necessary for the lead female roles who spoke English well enough.
Here’s something else that bothers me. Director Rob Marshall is using Liza Dalby, an American expert on geisha, to advise him on the movie.
“Memoirs of a Geisha” is also utilizing the talents of Liza Dalby, world-renowned geisha expert and author of many definitive works on the culture of the geisha, including “Geisha” and “Kimono,” as consultant in the making of this film.
Doesn’t that seem strange? Why not hire a Japanese expert on geisha? Language barrier again? Or would they never be able to hire a Japanese expert on geisha? (I.e. no Japanese from the Gion district of Kyoto would be caught dead advising for this film.)
The litmus test is how the movie will do in Japan.
“Lost in Translation” did pretty poorly in Japan, even though it was a cult hit outside of Japan. I think it’s safe to say that the audience for “LiT” was not the Japanese, and my Japanese friends who saw “LiT” in Japan were not moved by the film, again for obvious reasons. “Last Samurai” on the other hand, was well-received by the Japanese, did well at the Japanese box office. I feel that “Memories” is, like “LiT,” a movie by non-Japanese producers, with many non-Japanese lead actors, for a non-Japanese audience, but set in Japan.
That’s the difference, to me. If you can make a film about a culture that is not your own, and have it welcomed by those that you are portraying, then you’ve accomplished quite a lot. I have significant doubts about this production’s ability to do anything but reinforce romantic and innacurate stereotypes of Japan and geisha, and that is very depressing to me for many reasons.
The brilliant maneuver by casting these Hong Kong Kung Fu actors (Yeoh, Zhang) in these roles is that the studio can market this movie heavily to the Asian market beyond Japan (i.e. China, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong, etc.)
Here are some other relevant quotes I’ve assembled:
[Memoirs of a Geisha] “received some criticism from the APA [Asian and Pacific American] community for perpetuating the stereotype of the overly exotic Asian woman and for being written from a white male’s perspective.”
- Casting all Geishas [asianweek.com]
[Arthur Golden's muse for "Memoirs of a Geisha," Mineko] Iwasaki agreed to an interview by the author because she thought she could help dispel “the Fujiyama-geisha image of a woman who sells herself to her customers.” She was shocked when Golden’s novel turned out to be a narrative that contradicted her very intentions.
- Ex-geisha takes objection to “Memoirs of a Geisha” [mainichi.co.jp]
I don’t plan on seeing this film and I have not read Golden’s book and I don’t plan to. I do plan to read Iwasaki-san’s book.
“There is much mystery and misunderstanding about what it means to be a geisha. I hope this story will help explain what it is really like and also serve as a record of this unique component of Japan’s cultural history,” writes Mineko Iwasaki. Geisha, a Life is the first of its kind, as it delicately unfolds the fabric of a geisha’s development. Told with great wisdom and sensitivity, it is a true story of beauty and heroism, and of a time and culture rarely revealed to the Western world.
- Geisha, a Life [by Mineko Iwasaki]
Finally, I’ll leave the last word for my friend Jim.
I’m sure it’s going to be a wonderful movie and all, but why is it that Hollywood always seems to use Chinese and Chinese-American actresses for Japanese female roles? (Michelle Yeoh is from Malaysia, Zhang Ziyi was born in Beijing and Gong Li was born in Shenyang, China.)
Do they really think it doesn’t matter?
Are there no Japanese actresses?
Sorry but WHY THE ____ DO Asians get so upset by this and yet I heard no cries of anything when say Leonardo Di Caprio played a FRENCH guy in Man in the Iron Mask or Don Cheadle plays the COCKNEY safe cracker in Oceans 11. Robert Carlyle played a RUSSIAN in The World is Not Enough or Angelina Jolie played an ENGLISH adventurer in Tomb Raider.
It’s called ACTING. If only a Japanese person can play a Japanese part then I guess only a doctor can play a doctor and only an astronaut could play an astronaut. The entire industry is about making you believe someone is something they are not. Get over it.
As for finding Japanese actors, even Japan’s own directors say Japanese actors can’t act. According to them, the Japanese are too obsessed with looking cool so they can’t act because instead of trying to just act as a housewife or a doctor or an OL they try to act like a “cool” housewife or a “cool” doctor or a “cool” OL, never actaully delivering a belivable performance. I’m sure there are exceptions but that’s directly from Japan’s local directors.
I tend to agree with gman. If we wanted the actors to be as close to the real thing as possible, OJ Simpson should play the part of every estranged lover turned murderer.
In an ideal world, the actors would be able to act, their facial structure would match the ethnicity they’re trying to portray, and their accents/fluency would match (i.e. Crouching Tiger/Kill Bill would use native mandarin/japanese speaking actors). As long as there’s an imbalance out there, there’s an opportunity. Japan could take some of their gorgeous starlets and train them into one of the greatest actresses out there…the question is, does the society really want that? So far, the answer seems to be no.
Chris, you make the claim that it seems like society doesn’t want that but that doesn’t really seem to be substantiated. This seems to be less a question of what society wants (unless they polled people or used the casting call to shoot shorts that were screened for feedback) and more of a quetion of what the people in charge of casting and probably publicity want.
> and more of a quetion of what the people in
> charge of casting and probably publicity want.
Screw them and make your own movies. You don’t need the people in power currently to approve your project or give you permission. Just go do it yourself. If you actually have the talent to make something audiences want you will be successful.
Robert Rodreguiz(sp?), Ang Lee, Yimou Zhang, and others didn’t wait for Hollywood to give them permission.
You change the world by doing, not by whining.
This is definitely a well written and fair commentary on the movie. As to “Gman”‘s assertion that “You change the world by doing, not by whining.”, this is exactly about changing things by letting people know. The “Memoirs” is full of cultural misunderstandings and now they’re making a movie to magnify it even more. What exactly is wrong with Gen’s commentary, which is well-supported and raises valid points? It’s your comments that sound like pointless ranting.
I too was disappointed to see the cast of Memoirs of a Geisha, though I have no interest in the book due to its reputed inaccuracy. Something as uniquely Japanese as the geisha should be played by people who are Japanese (by culture, not race) and speak Japanese.
I imagine this movie will be nothing more than a caricature of the geisha and simply promote a certain stereotypes. I won’t be seeing the movie myself.
schmoe:
good idea. don’t read the book, don’t see the movie, post opinionated unfounded qualms, feel content. brilliant way to live life.
CC, personal attacks are not welcome on my site. Any more and your comments will be deleted.
Schmoe, that is exactly my point. So I really appreciate your comment. If the original material is inaccurate, and the director, producer and main actors are all non-Japanese, there is no way this movie can be anything but a caricature of the geisha.
When I tell people that I dont like the idea of a book or a movie or a TV show, because of whatever reason, some ask me, “Well have you seen it? Or read it? ‘Cause if you haven’t, then you can’t judge it.” Bullshit.
One problem I have with media in general is that it affects us when we view it, or experience it. So I choose NOT TO BE AFFECTED by media that I perceive to be inaccurate. It’s a conscious decision.
There are many ways that schmoe can learn more about Japan or geisha without reading Golden or seeing “Memoirs.” Going to Kyoto and experiencing that culture first-hand is best. Reading orginal material (i.e. written by people from that culture) in Japanese is next best. English translations (like that book by Mineko Iwasaki) is next best.
Just about the worst is watching some big-budget Hollywood film acted by non-Japanese (in the lead female roles), directed by non-Japanese (Marshall), produced by non-Japanese (Spielberg et al.), based on material written by non-Japanese (Golden) that was explicitly debunked by the writer’s primary source (Iwasaki.) How much more inaccurate can this film be?
I’m sorry Gen but I see this as no different than fundamentalist Christians protesting “The Last Temptation of Christ” without actually seeing it. If they saw it (and by the way I was a Christian when I saw it) many of them would have seen just how spiritual it was and how it taught Christian ideas and values. But instead, the just protested without seeing it.
Have you read “Memoirs of a Geisha?” Did you know it’s goal was to break the stereotype of geisha as prostitutes? To show that they were/are artists? Did you know that it mostly succeeded in that?
From everything I’ve read there are no major flaws in Memoirs of a Geisha. First off it’s a work of fiction and so it concentrates on one particular character. Not every geisha’s experience is going to be 100% the same but that doesn’t mean the experience portrayed in Memoirs is not mostly typical. It also depends on the year. Geisha is set in the 1930s, maybe the 1920s. Iwasaki’s experience is of course going to be different.
You can read this book as a counter example to Iwasaki’s experience
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0231129505/
As for this comment on your page
–
[Memoirs of a Geisha] “received some criticism from the APA [Asian and Pacific American] community for perpetuating the stereotype of the overly exotic Asian woman”
–
What the hell? Geisha are “overly exotic Asian woman”. Even to Asians! It’s that very fact that makes them an interesting story topic.
Oh give it a rest. Think about the subject of your wrath. It’s a damn ROMANCE NOVEL being produced into a movie by Steven “1941,” “Empire of the Sun” Spielberg. I don’t see people getting upset about the latest Harlequin Romance novel with Fabio on the cover being nonrepresentative of caucasians. This is not worth getting your dander up.
Furthermore, I will defend Liza Dalby, she has impeccable academic credentials and there are no other native English speakers who have penetrated so deeply into Gion. Any alleged distortions in her perceptions of Geisha lifestyle are miniscule in comparison to the distortions of Geisha lifestyle due to the modern conditions of Japanese life.
Disclaimer: I have not read Memoirs, but I did attend a lecture at the Iowa Writer’s Workshop by Golden, he seemed acutely sensitive to everyone’s racial concerns but he decided ultimately this is a work of fiction and not a documentary.
Additional disclaimer: I was briefly employed by Steven Spielberg. I was the first person in Hollywood to tell Spielberg to fuck off.
Jon,
My comment that Japanese society doesn’t really want to dominate western films is based on the fact that Japanese people are extremely good at entering a field and excelling at it. Whether it’s athletics (look at last month in Athens or baseball), cars, engineering, or architecture, there are Japanese people who learned how other did it, added their own touches and became the elites of the world. But you just don’t see that with their actors.
Japan has a legacy of incredible storytellers like Kurosawa or Miyazaki. But if you turn on local TV or go to many of their films, the ideals that the actors seem to strive for are very different from what people expect in western films. Emotions are wildly exaggerated and actors seem to work hard to match stereotypes as opposed to the western ‘method’ acting. I wonder if it’s that actors work hard at learning some traditional arts like rakugo that involve caricatures and then find it hard to portray real life.
Gen raises a great point that english fluency might have a lot to do with it, although if I remember right Zhang Ziyi can’t speak english worth anything.
I’d be curious if anyone who’s been in the inner circles of actors in Japan has an opinion. My guess is that actors here are financially and artistically satisfied with the local opportunities that there’s not as much of an emphasis on making it big outside of Japan.
Chris,
Thanks for the clarification. I’d initially read your comment as referring to the target audience’s society, not Japan’s. I’m less able to comment from that point of view.
And I seem to remember the same thing about Zhang Ziyi’s english so yeah, that’s probably not the major issue.
Just a quick note on “Lost in Translation” – of course that film wasn’t a hit in Japan, just like its converse wouldn’t be a hit in the U.S.
In fact, if I was always in Japan to the point where the culture was wholly native to me, I imagine that I would find “LiT” incredibly dull, and slightly amusing, because the basic premise of the film is based on people adapting poorly but mundanely to an environment that I live in every day. “LiT” happened to be set in Japan because it’s got a familiar / alien context to it – but it could have been set in other places and been almost exactly the same movie. The Japanese part of it was incidental to the story, which was about two lonely Americans in an unfamiliar environment. As I’ve said before, just like Gen in “Top Gun” – Japanese don’t identify with Americans on that level, just like Americans don’t identify with Japanese on that level. Basic – human – nature.
Also, I think Gen is getting paranoid about a global strategy to blacklist Japanese from starring in any movies ever. Gen needs psychiatric care: stat! Although what that means in Japan, I don’t know…it might not be a guy with a beard and a couch. It’s probably a pair of teen panties and an octopus or something.
Yours, from the land of the weird,
cdg
I’m going to have to agree with gman here in that I find it hard to lend credence to someone’s argument about “Memoirs” when that person admits they’ve never read it. Yes, you can read about something as much as you want, but all you are doing is reading other folk’s opinions about the work. They are, and should not be, a substitute for your own opinion.
If, as you say, you have experienced the culture firsthand and read firsthand, native language accounts of the culture, then how deeply affected can you be by a work of romantic fiction? “Memoirs” does not try to be a serious, scholarly work about the geisha world and never professes to be such. Anyone who takes it’s word as scripture is doing so of their own accord. Golden certainly isn’t “tricking” people into thinking this is some historical account.
And as far as the casting goes, while I find it sad that there were no actresses considered good enough for the roles (something I attribute almost solely to the language barrier), I don’t see anything wrong with casting non-Japanese Asians in the movie. As gman also said, they’re actors…just because they’re not Japanese doesn’t mean they can’t pretend to be so.
In the end, I would recommend you at least read some of the book you seem to dislike so much. It’s not bad…it’s not good…it’s just there.
Gen: deliberately ignoring something you think might be inacurate is a sad state to be in.
As far as why no one of Japanese decent was cast in this movie, I’d have to agree with those who have already commented that the local tallent in that field can not compete globally. Even with the tradition of kabuki-esque overacting that has been around since the dawn of Japanese film, there are examples of good actors here in the past. Unfortunately it looks as if that has gone the way of the Japanese film industry in general. Besides a handfull of supporting actors on US TV shows, and maybe Mifune Toshiro, I cant think of a single Japanese actor who has made a name for themselves in Hollywood. Of course this is not counting people like Sonny Chiba, Katsu Shintaro and others who have some kind of cult following.
1. People who get their cultural views from fiction are stupid, but of course people DO do that, and ARE stupid. So people WILL read/watch MoaG and assume they know something about geiko.
2. The hope then is that their interest will translate into a desire to do research of their own, just as I hope (as a classicist) that people saw the historical travesty that was Gladiator and did some reading on the Romans.
3. I agree that one should read/watch the controversial object for one’s self to determine opinions, but it is hard not to be upset when one’s culture or academic speciality is being butchered. So let’s sympathize with Gen here, ok?
4. I understand why the Japanese wouldn’t like the boring-to-them LiT, but might like the Last Samurai. After all, Gone With the Wind is hardly a documentary and is wildly innaccurate, and yet generations of folks both Southerners and non, love it. Do people assume they’re learning about history from it? Probably, unfortunately many people are that silly (see #1 above), but then again, we who know better, teachers or not, writers or not, can just try to educate them when it comes up. Offset the bad information and do what you can to wring what good you can out of something bad… like the geisha madness that MoaG caused.
Maybe, just maybe, it will help people learn the truth, while it also perpetuates the bad.
Not to hijack the thread too far, but there were some amusing components to “Gladiator” that were not so far off the mark. There was a semi-crazed emperor Commodus who was killed (at the behest of the Senate) by a gladiator (albeit, at his home, as I recall). Also, the initial battle was reasonable from the Roman perspective, even if the focus was on the slaughter AFTER the battle rather than the battle itself, which was over in the film effectively on first contact.
Some “fiction” is a remarkably effective way to learn history, cultural or otherwise, because it can personalize things that are otherwise difficult to wrap your head around.
Read the “Flashman” books, for example – which talley remarkably well with the commonly accepted themes and even many details highlighted in actual, textbook-serious histories about Queen Victoria’s “little wars” and Central Asian conflict in that time frame.
Should you found your cultural views on works of fiction? Of course not – that is stupid – but to deny that fiction can have some kind of constructive role in helping to define in broad strokes some cultural concepts is equally foolish, if that role is only to open further inquiry.
I also sympathize with Gen’s cultural sensitivity and advise him to seek the therapy I recommended above – STAT! He’ll feel better, and he can likely read a “Rape Man” manga in the waiting room, which apparently is soothing to the Japanese male psyche, particularly after being told that not only white women, but Asian women, find them unattractive (different thread).
cdg
I agree to an extent about your criticisms of Golden’s book and the upcoming movie. However, I would urge you to read the book in order to better understand the inaccuracies. Reading other people’s criticisms often isn’t enough – things might not offend you that offended others, and vice versa.
I was also curious about your statement that directors only use Chinese or Chinese-American actors to portray Japanese people. Aside from “Kill Bill” (in which there was no attempt to persuade the audience that Lucy Liu WAS Japanese, as American audiences are quite aware of her Chinese descent), did you have other examples in mind? I also find interesting your assertion (or your implication) that only a Japanese woman could accurately portray a geisha. Are you suggesting that there is some inherent quality (besides language) in a Japanese woman that would make her BETTER at playing geisha? Most people in Japan have never seen or met a geisha, and are familiar with them mostly through television dramas or movies. Geisha themselves are considered quaint and part of Japan’s “museum culture”. The skills and talents of a geisha are certainly not part of a modern, mainstream young Japanese woman’s education. So I am not convinced that a Japanese-born actress would be necessarily “better” or more suited for the role. I understand the well-intentioned desire to protect cultural integrity, but I think there is a danger in blindly doing so. In this case, for the Japanese actresses who might have been considered for the role, geisha culture would be just as foreign to them as it is for the Chinese actresses.
Finally, I think you underestimate Liza Dalby. She lived a geisha lifestyle for a time, and has done extensive research on geisha and geisha fashion. For the purposes of this movie, I think the producers made a good move in consulting her.
I will weigh in, finally, on race. Casting a geisha as a Chinese doesn’t make much sense; while it is likely that some geisha were in fact Chinese or Korean or what have you, most weren’t. Chinese and Japanese look different, QED. Having me, as a big white guy, play Young Hirohito doesn’t make much sense either, despite the fact that not many current Japanese have much experience being Emperor. Granted, they are pretty close – but there are differences.
cdg
I fail to understand how having a Chinese actress play a geisha would make the character Chinese. It would simply be, for better or worse, a Chinese person representing a Japanese person. As for differences in facial features, I am of the opinion that such differences are largely nationalist constructions. Japanese, Chinese, and Koreans come from basically the same racial stock – a lot of the “differences” come from geography, diet, and interbreeding with indigeneous peoples. I spent four months in Japan, and was mistaken for Japanese by just about every Japanese person I met – and both Japanese and Chinese people pride themselves on being able to “tell” who is of what country.
Obviously, an “All Asians look alike” mentality is to be avoided. But I feel that applies more on an individual level – for example, it would be offensive if people didn’t bother learning my name or constantly mistook me for other people because “all Asians look alike”. But to say that a Chinese cannot play a Japanese, and vice versa, because as separate races they do not look alike is, in my opinion, fairly inaccurate. They have different cultures and live in different societal structures, but they are of the same race – inasmuch as you believe race is inherent and not constructed.
Memoirs of a Geisha?
Gen Kanai did a wonderful sum-up on the upcoming movie called “Memoirs of a Geisha.” It is basically another stereotypical Hollywood movies on Japan – with Chinese casts and American “expert on geisha” as an advisor. I was quite surprised…
I’m guessing one of the reasons that they picked both Zhang Ziyi and Michelle Yeoh for their parts, isn’t exclusively for their English or box office appeal, but because they both have extensive training in dance that they’ve only had the chance to partially utilize in martial arts films before. (Neither of them had any martial arts skills, but because of their dance background, were able to learn and perform the complex choreography). In “House of Flying Daggers” Zhang Ziyi actually gets a rare occasion to show off that dance ability by performing some classical Chinese dances and it’s absolutely dazzling. Since I’ve read the novel, it describes in detail the dancing the geishas perform, so I’m sure they’ll be scenes rtequiring dancing in the movie. Even in terms of learning the body movements of geishas, actresses with dance background would probably have the training and body-conciousness to pick that up with greater facility.
Since being a geisha is just as foriegn to a young modern Chinese actress as it would be to a young modern Japanese actress, they would both have to go through the same extensive training to be able to learn the movements and perform the part.
I think in Hollywood isn’t the only ones who use actors to portray characters of there nationalities. Even in Asia, that happens all the time. In “Flowers of Shanghai”, Taiwanese director Hou Hsiao-Hsien cast Michiko Hada to play an 19th Century Chinese courtesan and even the Japanese director Kenji Mizoguchi cast Machiko Kyo as the famous Chinese Empress Yang Gweifei (pronounced Yokihi in Japanese) in the film “Yokihi”. “2046″ the latest film by Wong Kari-wai has Takuda Kimura as one if the stars, while all the lead Chinese characters in the film “The Silk Road” (“Dun-Huang” in Mandarin or “Ton Ko” in Japanese) were played by Japanese actors, namely Toshiyuki Nishida and Koichi Sato.
In Hollywood, the Japanese-American Tamlyn Tomita played the Chinese character Waverly Jong in “The Joy Luck Club” and I thought she was fantastic. I’m Chinese and wasn’t upset by the fact of her Japanese descent. Also two of the other main Chinese characters were played by Vietnamese actresses (Kieu Chinh and Frances Nguyen) but I thought they were great in their roles and as actresses, were able to effectively interpret the character despite the fact they weren’t Chinese.
Of course, there can be more films about Japan and East Asia in general, but I don’t think it’s accurate to say that Hollywood makes a point of casting Chinese people in Japanese roles. “Snow Falling on Cedars” featured Yoki Kudo in the lead female part and there weren’t any Chinese actors involved with “The Last Samurai.”
I agree with john, gman, and everyone on this forumn who thinks its ok to have a chinese actress playing a japanese role, I especially agree with hsui when she states that chinese and japanese are not different races.They mite have thier slite differences, but what racial group doesn’t? most of these difference just as hsiu states maybe do to geography, diet, and interbreeding with indigeneous peoples. It’s like saying the Swedish and the Germans are a different race, the Swedish maybe paler than the Germans but they are still both caucasians.
I read the book.
I am also disappointed that they could not find a cast of Japanese to be in the movie. It isnt saying that a doctor should be played by a doctor or OJ should play all roles that depict jealous ex killing ex.
For me, it has a deeper meaning. Being half Japanese I hear all the misperceptions of what people think of Geisha. I remember in College, there was a event in Sacramento…..they had a picture of a lady in a kimono….but the way the kimono was folded and prepared, it was not appropriate for this event. My J Professor called the organizers to help them correct this situation….there was nothing wrong with that.
You will get the same thing from other asian cultures…..if there is a movie being made in China for a particular story..and they cast Japanese….you would hear the complaints….
Why is it this way? I cant sit here and analyze it, but that is the way it is. I would prefer to see and would be proud to see a Japanese actor in this movie about Japan. Sure and great actor should be able to depict any type of role….but we do have the issue in the US. How many times do you read how the critics rip on an actor because the english, Irish, Australian accents sounds more hillbilly..off?
I know I watched the Last Samurai with my mom because there were Japanese actors. It made me feel good to see and proud to be part Japanese.
It is only my opinoin, but knowing the actors are not Japanese disappoints me too. I will watch the movie to see what it is like.
I do think the HK actors are very attractive and do look Japanese…..I also feel that Japan needs their actors to step up a beat….again, maybe they werent as interested as well.
Hi, am a quarter asian and noticed this about Japanese culture and films. They ALWAYS use white women as models in their magazines. They are so ashaamed of their own culture because of world war 2 that they have basically become American, people do say Japan is Americas 53rd state. I have NEVER seen a japanese cartoon with only asians, actually with even any dark haired females? why?
And about the Chinese actresses. Once upon a time China didnt have a film industry, and people used a JAPANESE actress to play a chinese in “The Joy Luck Club”, but Im sure you Japanese would get offended by that. I remember once here In France I met a Japanese, and I was talking about the chinese and looked at him, he said that the Chinese were a completely different race than the Japanese. SORRYYY but Japan was peopled from mainland Asia 5000 years ago. If I remember correctly from Anthropology, the original inhabitants were hairy white people. And NO, the Japanese were not born from the sun goddess which is taught in school eveb today in Japan.
I hit this sight by mistake but decided to give my two cents.
Duh, genocide of the Indians, enslavement of blacks, no voting rights for women for 2 hundred years, a civil war that killed over 600 thousand Americans (over tariffs and slaves), the biggest race riot in American history in New York, the lynching of black men once week after the civil war all the way into the twentieth century (now not as often; just shooting and prison), Indian families sold into slavery in LA at auction from 1850s through 1903 (privately until 1914), ninety plus percent of the American Indians wiped out, Asians not having rights until 1953, Asian girls sold to the elite as slaves in San Francisco for decades after statehood, the Japanese concentration camps, the fascist prison industrial complex (savage brutality pre Abu grab), Christians yelling abortion and bombing Iraq for oil, the Philippine Insurrection [!!!], Viet Nam (McNamara thought it was a mistake…later],etc., etc… Just scratching the surface…
You wonder why our school systems do not teach the truth? Any person with a soul would be ashamed and depressed; instead some become conservatives and ask for another drill sergeant.
The Japanese have been mistreated since the first American government official came into their mist. A violent crowd ran the Japanese ambassador out of Eureka in the 1930s and laws in California were racist to the max for all Asians since statehood. Eureka had a plank put up in city hall afterwards that said, (parenthetically) “No Japs (Asians) allowed” (or something not as pleasant).
Neanderthal lives. [A small group of Homo sapiens wondered into northern Europe and bonded and breed with the blond, red-haired, blue-eyed, shaggy, tall, large cranium Neanderthal. Neanderthal was elsewhere in the world but was not as successful so was genetically wiped out in most places. The women who could not accommodate these large heads died. Only women with the wider hips and preferably high hips lived. For centuries later their brood went a Viking. When the self pronounced pure folks brought back plunder and captives with which they breed the chief would look around one day and purge the Homo sapiens. Check Icelandic history of the many times the chief would ask for a purge (check today’s population) The English consider the Irish and the Scots sub-human because they were over-run so many times by the tow headed barbarians. But they were fighters. The British sent them to America because they would fight the Spanish and the French out of their nature. The Indian did not have a chance. At that time Germans, Jews, and Italians were not allowed in British controlled America.
The Japanese have the ability to act. They have beautiful woman as every ethnic group has (I sometimes think such women are another species!). It takes someone who is not blinded by their hubris and schooling to have the wisdom and insight to see the offensiveness of yet another slight after decades of abuse. Oh, yeah for those who did not understand when the History Channel says we had broken the Japanese military codes before World War II and had intercepted all the Japanese Ambassadors communication with the Japanese government (in our records (de-classified) for those who bother to look) before the war broke out. We knew. He knew.
We need to listen to Thomas Jefferson and get the original plan back on schedule. Alexander Hamilton’s elitism screwed us good.
You know whats really sad, Is that this film is
going to be a hit probably,the same stupid people will ask”which part of China is this from”?
Why would you cast a the main Character (who is Japanese) with a Chinese person.
Ill tell you why, “Ah nobody can tell the difference….wrong!
Tis move is another Hollywood film that will be totally inaccurate.
i have read much here that the book “Memoirs of the Geisha” gave many people misconceptions n stereotypes of the geisha. I am interested in geisha, however, I have not read more about geisha in order to see the inaccuracies in the book…
anyone can tell me more about it or is there any book that i can look for…
its an entertainment industry. they can cast, have whatever scripts and portray it however they wish. To learn about geisha or japanese culture, just visit the country and talk to its people. im asian and do not get offended by any of this.
I find this thread to be interesting and felt I had to add my two cents. I read Arthur Golden’s book some years back and absolutely loved it. I have been waiting for the movie ever since Spielberg was slated to direct. However, the more I learn about the direction the movie is taking, the more I realize the movie is going to suck like all other Hollywood movies. First off, how could they not use real Japanese experts as consultants for the movie. Using a foreigner for this role is like having my Japanese roommate in college be the expert on American holidays and customs. They both immersed themselves in a different culture for several years but it is not the same as having a native explain it.
I am also disappointed in the choice of actresses to play the lead roles in the movie. Zhang Ziyi and Michelle Yeoh are not first rate actresses. Both made their names from Kungfu movies(i.e. Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon) and as far as I can tell, most of my Asian friends think it is a joke (I’m sorry but pouting is not acting). Only Gong Li is a trained actress. I have also watched many Japanese movies (subtitled) and can honestly say that there are a lot of first rate Japanese actors/actresses. Most Americans are not aware of them (and all other great actors/actresses from other countries) because they don’t see any movies other than the crap coming out of Hollywood these days. As for the people who say it is ok for Chinese actresses to play ALL the lead roles in the movie, I wonder how they would react if native french actors (not french americans) had taken ALL the lead roles in Gone with the Wind?
The excuse that language was a barrier for Japanese actors is also weak. English is a requirement for Japanese students in school while the same is not true for the Chinese. If they could send Zhang to English classes, why not a Japanese actor? Furthermore, this is a movie set in Japan so WHY IS EVERYONE SPEAKING ENGLISH??!! Once again, imagine Gone with the Wind made in French.
My theory is that Rob Marshall and the studio used Chinese actresses because they are the flavor of the moment and also to tap into the Chinese market. I think it will backfire on them because it will alienate the Japanese audience (which is a very large PAYING market) and it will not matter to the Chinese audience since they will just watch pirated versions of the movie before it even hits theatres there. I’ll just stick with the book thank you very much.
I am upset that most of this nimble brains don’t get it. If is it unacceptable for a WHITE person to put on BLACK face and act then it is equally UNACCEPTABLE for a CHINESE person to play a JAPANESE person. GEEZ. Grab a map, read a book, learn something about race, cultures, ethnicities, racism, women, and the freakin’ world. Please, they couldn’t find a english speaking strong enuf actress. That is really racist and the white male director is a jerk.
With the release of Memoirs of a Geisha approaching I think more and more people will be curious about the film and geisha. I too was at first disappointed that the lead actresses were Chinese but that feeling quickly vanished. Until I see their performances it isn’t fair to judge them or anyone else involved with the making of this film. If it turns out as badly as the movie version of my favorite book, The Count of Monte Cristo then I will be extremely upset. I love learning about Japanese culture and have read and continue to read about geisha. I have read Liza Dalby’s book as well as Mineko Iwasaki’s and Memoirs. Memoirs is a work of fiction and I loved it. I am not saying the movie will be as good as the book, for they rarely are, but I am saying that I intend to see the film and make that decision for myself. All audiences around the world will draw their own conclusions about it and my only hope is that the people behind the movie did their best to portray an accurate depiction of geisha during that time and that the movie follows the book. I sincerely hope that no one is offended by Memoirs or the people behind the making of it and I am sorry if they are. Geisha are mysterious and have kept the details of their world a secret for a long time, even from their own. I am no expert but I think this film is like a little peep hole into that world, it isn’t large and we don’t see much. We aren’t able to collect all the details about what we are seeing but just the fact that we are given a glimpse into this remarkable part of Japanese culture is what drives audiences as well as my own curiosity. Again I would like to say that this is a work of fiction, it is an American creation and so, sadly, it is a part of Hollywood, a hopeful money machine. But despite the fact that the story is straight from Hollywood I hope that it is a good attempt. When I see the film I hope I am not disappointed, and if I am it would not be for the first time, I will still have the book.
I have read the book. It was a touching story. I will see the movie. Catfights are always fun.
The reason that this movie’s casting is getting so much attention is that we do not often get to see an all-Asian cast that speaks mostly English. I, at least, as a Korean-American, would love to see the film be a success.
Although the person who wrote above that the female Chinese stars in this movie were chosen not only for their box office appeal but for their dance skills has a point, it is unreasonable to suppose that there were not actresses in Japan with equally impressive backgrounds in dance available for these roles.
It also seems rather ridiculous to say that appearances do not matter. How many versions of Pride and Prejudice do you see with black, brown, or yellow female stars? Harry Potter movies, produced by Hollywood, mostly use British actors for the same reason.
What I do not understand is why the Hollywood people did not look in our own country for Asian actresses who can speak English fluently. Are Asian actresses who are born in Asia only able to fulfill the roles of sayuri and hatsumomo?
I read the book of “Memoirs of a Geisha” many years ago in English. I don’t read Englis novels so much, because my English is not good enough. I could read this novel very fast, because of the fasicnaiton of the story, I was caught in the charm of the story. I am Japanese, even for us, the world of Geisha is a mysterious world, and not much has been known to us. Soon after, I heard this novel would be made into a movie. I waitied and waited for the day to be released. I wondered who would be “Sayuri”. There were a lot of arguement about the Chinese actress would act main characters. I didn’t care as long as movie could add something that can tell truth about Japanese culture. Of couse, I went to see a movie. I was so so disappointed with the movie. Moive and book are different. This is a movie made in Holleywood. Main charecters are Chinese. I know all of them before seeing a movie. The reality that still Japanese culture is always ditorted and told in a different style. Japanese culture itself is disappearing, but it is so sad.
I remember about another movie which was made in the U.S. I thought the title was “SHOUGUN” Japanese famouse acotr Mifune Toshiro was in it. Acually I didn’t know about this movie until my Canadian friend sent a video of this movie. Shimada Yoko was a main character, all though the movie, she spoke English. At first, this role was supporsed to act by a Chinese. She has been in Japan for a long time and can speak Chinese, Japanese and English perfectly. But her busy schedule didn’t allow her to have a chance to act in this movie. Shimada Yoko’s English had Japanese accent, not fluent but I think this made this movie real. If that Chinese actress had got this role, of course her English would have been perfect, but something must have been lost. I think there should be a good actress who can play a part of “Sayuri” who cold add more Japanese flavor. I don’t say Ziyi Zhang is not good, Gong Li’s acting was great, but the story is not about Japan, some different country or Japan for people who don’t know about our country.
to gman and chris (though i’m a year late):
the presumption has to be made that these two are white men, who can’t POSSIBLY understand what its like to be a minority in this situation.
i’m black, and i MORE than understand why chines and japanese are pi*sed off at the casting choices and depictions of geishas.
‘geishas’ were not run of the mill prostitutes. that is a white male fantasy.
the japanese killed something like 300,000 chinese (using civilian men for bayonet practices, raping chinese women and sending many to a life of sexual slavery on the front as ‘pleasure girls’, and tossing babies in the air and shooting them for sport), so chinese people DO resent their chinese women playing the part of japanese geishas (totally different cultures).
the movie used as it’s ‘expert’ a white woman when, sorry folks, a white woman geisha can’t know MORE than a japanese geisha. she might know as much (somehow), but never more.
as for THIS silly a*sed statement by gman:
“As for finding Japanese actors, even Japan’s own directors say Japanese actors can’t act. According to them, the Japanese are too obsessed with looking cool so they can’t act because instead of trying to just act as a housewife or a doctor or an OL they try to act like a “cool” housewife or a “cool” doctor or a “cool” OL, never actaully delivering a belivable performance. I’m sure there are exceptions but that’s directly from Japan’s local directors.”
really? EVERY japanese director said that EVERY japanese actor does this, huh? amazing. pat morita was interested in ‘looking cool’? oh, he was japanese american, so that’s okay, he can act, right? but japanese actors born in japan can’t act…not ONE of them? bull shyt!
why don’t white people get upset when an italian american plays the role of an french man? simple: white people are ‘on top’ and as such, don’t usually get angry if an american actor plays a british role, or vice versa.
however, many irish people DO get angy when they see a british person play an irish role. often, polish people get upset when they see a russian person play the role of a polish person. the HISTORIES between the people often have something to do with it.
and chris…o.j. simpson was found NOT GUILTY by a jury that was half white. thats a passively racist statement you made about every wife murderer that didn’t go unnoticed. if you truly believe that o.j. did that why:
couldnt the prosecution prove its point?
did the jury, sequestered away from the media, find him not guilty?
why did the police PLANT evidence?
why did the prosecutions witness say the blood on the scene was not consistent with a bleeding man running out of a house, but like someone took a bucket of blood and ‘flicked’ it on the ground as though they were standing in the middle of a circle?
so, NOOOOOO, given that most wife murderers in the u.s. are white men (more white men in america than any other single group), the face of a ‘wife murderer’ would be what lifetime (t.v. for women) shows it as…a white man.
grow up gentlemen, and move away from your racist views.
Part of me is ashamed to be American, the other part being Asian is angry as hell at this movie.
I had gone to see it in hopes of it actually being good. I can give a rats ass about anything as long as it explained the story well. Instead I find that this movie was rushed, skipped over, and beaten with a bloody bone of a donkey’s ass. Horrified not only the potrayal of Geisha, but the book itself was murdered. I’m very sad.
ok ok just a few comments… first of all i think the thread has gone WAAAAY off the original topic which was the portrayal of the geisha as a prostitute or something of that nature….
I just saw the movie no more than an hour ago and couldn’t disagree more. Sayuri, the main character played by Zhang Ziyi has to confront the whole idea of being for hire sexually numerous times in the movie, with one memorable quote going something along the lines of “i dont think you understand, thats not what geishas do. and even if we did you couldnt afford it” or something of that nature.
when she was a young girl and still named Chiyo, one scenehas her trying to find her sister who was sold to another house. Chiyo finds out where she is, another area of the city “the pleasure district” which was shown to be COMPLETELY different from where Chiyo was. Quite frankly the movie showed it to be looked on with contempt by geishas!
another quote for you “Remember, Chiyo, geisha are not courtesans. And we are not wives. We sell our skills, not our bodies. We create another secret world, a place only of beauty. The very word “geisha” means artist and to be a geisha is to be judged as a moving work of art.”
obviously the author and therefore the director were NOT trying to misrepresent geisha culture as one of prostitution!
i thought the movie was very well done, the acting was very good although i wish it had been in japanese with subtitles… Suzuka Ohgo as Chiyo was excellent esp. in her first role!
hope to hear some more comments on this movie
Hi, I saw Memoirs of a Geisha and I did enjoy the movie, but I thought I should do some research on it before I gave it all this praise. Your site has helped me a lot. I thought it was important to see what the Japanese community thought of the movie because, being Black, know that often times a movie praised by an American audience can be totally inaccurate and offensive to a people.
I agree with your post, sure the novel is fiction and people argue that therefore it doesn’t have to be as accurate, but it does to an extent. I’m an actress in theater and before a play is produced we have dramaturges to make sure that every thing is indeed historically correct.
Also, i feel it’s an outright ignorant statement to suggest that the Japanese don’t have any good actors. If you looked at Hollywood now and used this to judge how well Black people act, you would think Halle Berry, Denzel Washington, Don Cheadle and a handfull of others were the only good ones, when their are so many underrated.
I think it’s not fair to the Japanese community to be ignored when it came to making this movie and the fact that its from a white American males perspective. I don’t think their is a such thing as being objective when creating some form of art.
Also I feel like something people don’t understand is that it’s your culture so you don’t have to read the book and see the movie necessarily to know if it’s accurate or inaccurate, i’m sure you’ve read plenty reviews, i totally feel you.
Great post.
Also, would the American public be upset if Elvis Presley was played by a light-skinned black man? Hell yea. But I mean, we’re all Americans, right? Why not just group us all together?
I came on here because i was made to see the movie by a friend and after seeing it i really enjoyed the movie and was trying to find more information on it.
Why is everyone having a cry about it?
Who cares if the actors arent Japanese? Who cares if the story isnt exactly accurate?
As someone said before its a MOVIE based on a NOVEL. Its not a documentary!!
To be honest im glad i know a little about geishas now then not knowing about them at all before i saw the movie.
If you want to see the movie/read the book. Fine. If you dont. Thats fine aswell. Just stop complaining!
I think the Chinese actresses’ acting is commendable.
But it really is weird coz a chinese woman is acting as a japanese geisha. To the rest of the world, chinese and japanese may look similar. But seriously, as an Asian, it’s really obvious in the movie that the “geisha” is a chinese. It’s hard to sketch in ur mind a chinese lady image as a japanese lady image. So it’s really kinda weird to look at this movie with its line of actresses altogther, though the acting skills is really good.
It just doesnt seem… right.
hi.i am from Malaysia…where Datuk Michelle Yeoh is from… and i personally think that its just not right at all,for her to play the roles of a Japanese…and i absolutely support Gen’s thought.
to gman,u r wrong…Leonardo Di Caprio,even though he played the French man…it doesnt make any difference.but for a Chinese to play/act as a Japanese,YES it does make alot of differences… bcs there is alot of Cultures, Feelings and Respect involved. west people dont know about this,bcs they never have one.
if they have some Respect,there wouldnt be the terrible history facts in pearl harbour and black hawk down! west people should be ashame of themselves,rather than walking proud… since world history starts in the EAST and NOT west,and it seems like they are trying to re-write the world’s history thru their very bad movies.
Nikita. Your message exemplifies the racism and bigotry you compalin about. Perfect. So good, it has to ba a joke
Arthur Golden was a well respected author in his society, in his time. However his book, upon which the film was based, was culturally insensitive and he deliberately ignored the important matters for the woman who gave him the information on the world of the Geisha. Yes, he went to a professional source of information but he only did it to give his book credibility and to get the what would be considered ‘the gritty goods’ in the Western World.
I’m not bothered by the fact that the women actors were Chinese. I’m bothered by the fact that the movie gives the impression to those who know little or nothing about Geisha and Japanese culture, that this is an accurate overview of the world of the Geisha.
I think that the producers were aiming for the same thing Arthur Golden was and its a true shame that they did not base it on Mineko Iwasaki’s book.
I’m from New Zealand by the way, with not an ounce of Japanese in me and even I could see the glaring cultural holes. And that was dissappointing to me.
Can somebody help??
A true woman can turn away…………
What’s the end of it?????????
I’VE READ THE BOOK AND WATCHED THE MOVIE.I’M HORRIFIED TO SEE THAT A MAJORITY OF YOU ARE BOTHERED BY SOMEONE CHINESE PORTRAYING A JAPANESE GEISHA. HAVE YOU LOST SIGHT OF THE REAL ISSUE? THIS CULTURE YOUR SO PROUD OF AND READY TO DEFEND, PROMOTED PROSTITUTION?
AS A WOMEN I’D BE TRULY PISSED ABOUT THE STORY LINE VS WHO’S PORTYAING THE POOR THING FORCED INTO A LIFE ENTERTAING JAPANESE MEN. I PERSONALLY THOUGHT THE BOOK WAS VERY POORLY WRITTEN, AND THE GEISHA ARE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF, BUT PITTIED.
I can understand why they did not use japanese actors for the film, as they wanted to sell it to the western people, but they could have smoothed out the inacurate life of the Geisha.The Japanese are proud of there history, and the film should have shown a more truefull look at Geisha. But at the end of the day its all about making money.
I must say that I have read the book and not seen the movie, but enjoyed the book for what it was worth. I didn’t expect it to be accurate, and it wasn’t. Don’t invest so much in a NOVEL. It’s just that, a novel. I myself think that Geisha are skilled artisans, and not prostitutes.
Furthermore, I think that JACINDA is completely off the mark. “THE GEISHA ARE NOTHING TO BE PROUD OF, BUT PITTIED.” That was written by JACINDA. It’s like saying that in Australia, our major cultural icon, the kangaroo, is to be pitted and not celebrated. For years the culture of Japan has rested on the painted white shoulders of the Maiko and Geisha, and even though they aren’t presented in an accurate light by the western society, their legacy will live on. They are not prostitutes. As being from a different country and background, we can’t appreciate their beauty, skill and purpose. Get over it, and if you really aren’t convinced that they’re not prostitutes, get some real research and not a fictitous novel…
Lekky out…
Oh, and another thing.
Look up:
- Mizuage (selling a Maiko’s virginity)
and
- Danna
I agree with Lekky; JACINDA, you quite expertly demonstrate ignorance about geishas and don’t have much right to rant about our ‘culture that promoted prostitution’. Geishas are not the equivalent of prostitutes.
This may be a perfect example of why some despised Arthur Golden’s story and the movie; fictional or not, it has created a false impression of geisha to people less knowledgable of the real truth.
I agree completely with gen’s blog: “I’m sad because this movie will reinforce inacurate stereotypes about geisha and Japan.”
It is offensive to me when such false stereotypes are created and released to the masses through the media.
I have read the book first then waited anxiously for the movie to come out. I have also read Mineko Iwasaki’s book that contends with Golden’s book. I still can’t grasp why the directors’ of the movie used Chinese actresses instead of Japanese actresses for leading roles. However, I don’t dare diss the chinese leading actresses for I feel that they did a great job in their roles.
As for the book, even though it is declared as fiction and not a documentary. In a strong sense of the word, it is non-fiction. For I feel that events and experiences don’t appear out of thin air. I don’t think that the book ever portrayed Geisha’s as prostitutes, but rather as living artists. It is true that their purpose is to entertain men and not everything is clear cut and dried.
Overall, the movie did good and the book is good. Golden took 10 years to do this book, and that is 10 years of experiencing the japanese culture and actually consulting with an former geisha. Liz Dalby experienced the geisha life and she was accepted as one of them, so i feel that she did well. I would not call her an expert, but she knows the culture and to me that is good enough
chinese actress portraying a japanese. well, put into perspective, its not as bad as john wayne portraying genghis khan!
Geishas are Japanese… were not dealing with an actor playing someone from a different region, were dealing with an ethnicity. Its like Helen Miren playing Rosa Parks.